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OHIOSTEVE
Not counting the beer already bottled and setting in the spare room upstairs, I have about 45 gallons more in different stages of fermentation ( beer and wine combined) I have been giving it away like crazy but stll have a ton.
iowanic
beer3.gif icon_cheers.gif icon_bottumup.gif
XXMag
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Apr 24 2010, 04:41 PM) *
Not counting the beer already bottled and setting in the spare room upstairs, I have about 45 gallons more in different stages of fermentation ( beer and wine combined) I have been giving it away like crazy but stll have a ton.


What kind of styles did you make? Are they pretty good?

Oh, shit. I forgot to ask about that hops schedule. I'll get on that. Sorry.
OHIOSTEVE
I have made several different styles. I just had my second GUINNESS drinker tell me that my porter kicks guiness' ass. I have a couple of IPA's and a couple of my own recipes . I have one that is more bitter than any beer I have had anywhere... I personally don't like it but some LOVE it.
XXMag
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Apr 25 2010, 01:01 AM) *
I have made several different styles. I just had my second GUINNESS drinker tell me that my porter kicks guiness' ass. I have a couple of IPA's and a couple of my own recipes . I have one that is more bitter than any beer I have had anywhere... I personally don't like it but some LOVE it.


Of the beer my friend gave me for Christmas, the one I liked best was his Oxtoberfest. Apparently it started out as an Oktoberfest but he accidentally doubled the wheat. That was good.

I'm not much of a Guinness drinker, but I'd like to try that porter.
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (XXMag @ Apr 25 2010, 06:55 AM) *
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Apr 25 2010, 01:01 AM) *
I have made several different styles. I just had my second GUINNESS drinker tell me that my porter kicks guiness' ass. I have a couple of IPA's and a couple of my own recipes . I have one that is more bitter than any beer I have had anywhere... I personally don't like it but some LOVE it.


Of the beer my friend gave me for Christmas, the one I liked best was his Oxtoberfest. Apparently it started out as an Oktoberfest but he accidentally doubled the wheat. That was good.

I'm not much of a Guinness drinker, but I'd like to try that porter.

I wonde if I can ship it legally or otherwise?
Grace
I just tried Samuel Adams Summertime Ale. Very good. Although I had a headache the next day and only drank 2 (maybe 3). I was told by beer experts the reason I got a headache was from drinking crap beer like IceHouse. I thought Sam Adams was a premium beer.
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (Grace @ Apr 26 2010, 10:24 AM) *
I just tried Samuel Adams Summertime Ale. Very good. Although I had a headache the next day and only drank 2 (maybe 3). I was told by beer experts the reason I got a headache was from drinking crap beer like IceHouse. I thought Sam Adams was a premium beer.

funny you say that grace... My wife claims that drinking my wine or beer ( she is not a beer drinker) has no ill effects, but commercial stuff stuffs her head up and gives her a headache.
Grace
If that's true Steve, you could be onto something here. The first headache/hangover free beer and wine! I'd order me a case. Or 2. One of each.
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (Grace @ Apr 26 2010, 12:38 PM) *
If that's true Steve, you could be onto something here. The first headache/hangover free beer and wine! I'd order me a case. Or 2. One of each.

nope, just angie. My buddy was here the other night and having a rough time( personal issues I am trying to help him through along with counseling) Anyway he started sampling stuff...everything from beers to hard lemonade and finished with wine... He was a hurtin SOB the next day he said.
Grace
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Apr 26 2010, 03:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Grace @ Apr 26 2010, 12:38 PM) *
If that's true Steve, you could be onto something here. The first headache/hangover free beer and wine! I'd order me a case. Or 2. One of each.

nope, just angie. My buddy was here the other night and having a rough time( personal issues I am trying to help him through along with counseling) Anyway he started sampling stuff...everything from beers to hard lemonade and finished with wine... He was a hurtin SOB the next day he said.



LOL. Maybe Angie's pouring her share into the plants..oh yes honey this is soooo good!!! icon_puke.gif
XXMag
Sam's Summer is very good stuff. I like the SA Oktober too. Come to think of it, I don't recall not liking a variety of Sam Adams. Even the sweet fruity stuff I'd usually hate was alright.


And I got the go ahead today to spend the money and waste the time to try this out. Any tips for a beginner?
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (XXMag @ Apr 26 2010, 07:30 PM) *
Sam's Summer is very good stuff. I like the SA Oktober too. Come to think of it, I don't recall not liking a variety of Sam Adams. Even the sweet fruity stuff I'd usually hate was alright.


And I got the go ahead today to spend the money and waste the time to try this out. Any tips for a beginner?

first and foremost go to www.homebrewtalk.com there is a beginner section and the people are EXTREMELY helpful. Next decide if you want to do extract....partial mash....or all grain brews. I recommend you start with extracts... buy a HUGE pot , I have a 7 gallon one for kitchen brewing and I have an outdoor setup also.... pick a recipe and follow it to the T.
XXMag
Thanks, that looks to be a nice resource, I also got a book from the library. I’ll have to talk to my buddy for some pointers too. I don’t figure I’ll be making the first batch too soon, I’ll probably slowly amass the needed hardware and I want to read sections of this book first. It’s written for the “will-be” brewer, so it ought to be a good start.

I’m a bit of a meticulous planner, if you can’t tell. It suits me for most things – hell, it’s my career – but it looks as though this subject is so vast that I’m ever going to get started I’ll have to just study the basics and then dive in with both feet and learn the rest as I go along. That ought to be more fun anyhow.
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (XXMag @ Apr 28 2010, 12:05 PM) *
Thanks, that looks to be a nice resource, I also got a book from the library. I’ll have to talk to my buddy for some pointers too. I don’t figure I’ll be making the first batch too soon, I’ll probably slowly amass the needed hardware and I want to read sections of this book first. It’s written for the “will-be” brewer, so it ought to be a good start.

I’m a bit of a meticulous planner, if you can’t tell. It suits me for most things – hell, it’s my career – but it looks as though this subject is so vast that I’m ever going to get started I’ll have to just study the basics and then dive in with both feet and learn the rest as I go along. That ought to be more fun anyhow.

only way to learn....make a mistake and the taste will differ..maybe better maybe worse. My most popular beer so far is the result of missing a temp. I keep good records so I am able to recreate the mistake. IF you are really that meticulous I'd suggest diving into all grain brews from the get go. I did 2 extract types then jumped in to all grain and like it much better. You will need two big pots ( I have a keg with the top cut out and a ball valve welded into the side with a pick up tube. ) and a large stainless water pressure tank with the top cut out. One for heating mash and sparge water. and one to do the actual boil in...... You will also need a mash tun ( I use a coleman cooler with the drain removed and a tube inserted that is water tight... The inside of the cooler has a stainless steel braid that acts as a filter) you will also need a burner ( turkey fryer) but if you had 2 that would be even better. If you have a brew shop close you can buy and mill your supplies there, if not I recommend a BARLEY CRUSHER grain mill. I just bought one and love it. I am no expert by any means but I can talk you through the basics of it. I recommend using other peoples recipes at first.. decide on a beer style you like and find a "clone" recipe for it and go from there. I recommend a recipe off of that site called CENTENNIEL BLOND.. everyone will like it IF They drink commercial beers.

A little incident to report.. The grandbaby was over a few days ago, ( keep in mind that sanitation is extremely important when brewing beer, we sanitize everything that comes into contact with the beer after the boil) He pulled the airlock out of one of my fermentors , so my wife sanitized it and put it back in. I keep all of the fermentors covered to prevent sunlight from skunking the beer. Later that day I removed the cover to transfer this beer into a secondary fermentor and there was a CHEEZIT floating in the middle of my beer! I transferred the beer and hopefully will have no issues but this batch is now called the " CHEDDAR BLOND"
XXMag
Good lord, Cheddar Blond. I hope the batch comes out alright.


QUOTE
only way to learn....make a mistake and the taste will differ..maybe better maybe worse. My most popular beer so far is the result of missing a temp.

My favorite of my friend’s beer was the result of accidentally doubling the wheat.

QUOTE
You will need two big pots ( I have a keg with the top cut out and a ball valve welded into the side with a pick up tube. )

A vessel with a ball valve is a smart idea. Do you attach the pickup tube to the valve with a threaded fitting or a compression coupling of some sort? Is it hard to sanitize?

QUOTE
IF you are really that meticulous I'd suggest diving into all grain brews from the get go. I did 2 extract types then jumped in to all grain and like it much better.

I’ve been doing my homework on this. I had imagined going whole hog and doing all grain from the get go. I’m a real hands on kind of guy and I do think I would enjoy that a bit better and would likely get more satisfying results. But I’ve got young kids and my wife works every other weekend. I’ve got a lot of other things going on and not a lot of time to get them done. So for the foreseeable future I think I’m going to take the extract shortcut and cut down on the fuss and bother and time involved. And I can imagine I’ll have a “Cheddar Blond” type incident myself, if not several of them. A ruined batch will be easier to absorb if I haven’t sunk too much time and effort in the first place.

QUOTE
I recommend using other peoples recipes at first.. decide on a beer style you like and find a "clone" recipe for it and go from there. I recommend a recipe off of that site called CENTENNIEL BLOND.. everyone will like it IF They drink commercial beers.

I think I want to clone something like the SA Summer Ale. That is unless it’s turning into fall by the time I get this operation off the ground. In that case I want to try an Oktoberfest. My folks would prefer a brew more like a commercial one. But my wife and I like brighter, bolder flavors.
The place I work for consolidated one of our small offices into the one I work in. And now we’ve got an extra refrigerator that’ll go to the highest bidder, but no one else wants it. I’m going to get that thing and if I ever want to try a lager I can and in the meantime I can keep my stuff in it.

Grace






You guys are nuts. Simplify!
bcowner
To bad I quit drinking icon_bawling.gif
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (XXMag @ Apr 30 2010, 08:35 AM) *
Good lord, Cheddar Blond. I hope the batch comes out alright.


QUOTE
only way to learn....make a mistake and the taste will differ..maybe better maybe worse. My most popular beer so far is the result of missing a temp.

My favorite of my friend’s beer was the result of accidentally doubling the wheat.

QUOTE
You will need two big pots ( I have a keg with the top cut out and a ball valve welded into the side with a pick up tube. )

A vessel with a ball valve is a smart idea. Do you attach the pickup tube to the valve with a threaded fitting or a compression coupling of some sort? Is it hard to sanitize?

QUOTE
IF you are really that meticulous I'd suggest diving into all grain brews from the get go. I did 2 extract types then jumped in to all grain and like it much better.

I’ve been doing my homework on this. I had imagined going whole hog and doing all grain from the get go. I’m a real hands on kind of guy and I do think I would enjoy that a bit better and would likely get more satisfying results. But I’ve got young kids and my wife works every other weekend. I’ve got a lot of other things going on and not a lot of time to get them done. So for the foreseeable future I think I’m going to take the extract shortcut and cut down on the fuss and bother and time involved. And I can imagine I’ll have a “Cheddar Blond” type incident myself, if not several of them. A ruined batch will be easier to absorb if I haven’t sunk too much time and effort in the first place.

QUOTE
I recommend using other peoples recipes at first.. decide on a beer style you like and find a "clone" recipe for it and go from there. I recommend a recipe off of that site called CENTENNIEL BLOND.. everyone will like it IF They drink commercial beers.

I think I want to clone something like the SA Summer Ale. That is unless it’s turning into fall by the time I get this operation off the ground. In that case I want to try an Oktoberfest. My folks would prefer a brew more like a commercial one. But my wife and I like brighter, bolder flavors.
The place I work for consolidated one of our small offices into the one I work in. And now we’ve got an extra refrigerator that’ll go to the highest bidder, but no one else wants it. I’m going to get that thing and if I ever want to try a lager I can and in the meantime I can keep my stuff in it.

your boil pot is self sanitizing due to....well boiling lol...the pick up tube I use is threaded... I am beat, been at BELTERRA CASINO and just got home ( convention) running on 3 hours sleep since thurs night I think. I will post some more stuff later. BTW I won about 50 bucks, Angire lost 10.. The casino messed up my Credit card so my room was comped so My weekend was basically free.. OH YEAH Fri night I ate more than probably I ever have.. AYCE seafood buffet at the casino.. raw oysters...crab legs...shrimp...etc etc.....UGH
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (Grace @ Apr 30 2010, 01:01 PM) *




You guys are nuts. Simplify!

much less satisfying.. kinda like buying shrimp or catching your own icon_tongue.gif
Grace
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ May 1 2010, 08:34 PM) *
QUOTE (Grace @ Apr 30 2010, 01:01 PM) *




You guys are nuts. Simplify!

much less satisfying.. kinda like buying shrimp or catching your own icon_tongue.gif



Exactly! So easy to buy a pound in the supermarket. Glad you finally agree w/me on something. icon_tongue.gif
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (Grace @ May 2 2010, 06:45 AM) *
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ May 1 2010, 08:34 PM) *
QUOTE (Grace @ Apr 30 2010, 01:01 PM) *




You guys are nuts. Simplify!

much less satisfying.. kinda like buying shrimp or catching your own icon_tongue.gif



Exactly! So easy to buy a pound in the supermarket. Glad you finally agree w/me on something. icon_tongue.gif

you dont know what you re missing grace.. grab a net and hit the ocean......
OHIOSTEVE
well XX how is the new hobby progressing? I am thinking about doing a batch today. Probabky do it on the stove as I am not sure there is enough propane to do a boil before running out.
OHIOSTEVE
Making up labels is kinda fun also. This one is for a barleywine I am gonna bre in about a week.

OHIOSTEVE
OHIOSTEVE
hey XX how is the studying going for the beer making? As I type I just finished racking 5 gallons of blueberry wine and have 5 gallons of pineapple racking. Getting ready to rack banana, and then a batch of beer ( today is alcohol saturday lol.)
Dave
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ May 29 2010, 11:18 AM) *
hey XX how is the studying going for the beer making? As I type I just finished racking 5 gallons of blueberry wine and have 5 gallons of pineapple racking. Getting ready to rack banana, and then a batch of beer ( today is alcohol saturday lol.)

To beers I've always wanted to clone are Harpoon's Winter Warmer and Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout. I came close with the Winter Warmer but had no luck with the stout.

I haven't brewed in over ten years. I moved into an apartment in 2000 and just didn't have the room for it. I bought a house in 2007 and I've been meaning to get back into it now that I have the room but I just haven't made the commitment yet.

Best beer I ever made was a strawberry porter, substituting 1 gallon of strawberry Juicy-Juice for 1 gallon water. That was done from extract. Never did try all grain.
Grace
I'm having a Molson Ice right now and it taste like skunk.
Alie
We, or rather the husband, have started brewing our own beer over a year and a half ago.

We got inspired after watching All-Grain Brewing with Johnny Hanson, which I highly recommend by the way!
It will get you started with brewing without having to invest a lot of money.

We also bought The complete joy of Homebrewing by George Papazian.
Husband has already brewed a few nice triples and even a weedbeer, both great successes with friends icon_biggrin.gif
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (Alie @ May 30 2010, 09:07 AM) *
We, or rather the husband, have started brewing our own beer over a year and a half ago.

We got inspired after watching All-Grain Brewing with Johnny Hanson, which I highly recommend by the way!
It will get you started with brewing without having to invest a lot of money.

We also bought The complete joy of Homebrewing by George Papazian.
Husband has already brewed a few nice triples and even a weedbeer, both great successes with friends icon_biggrin.gif

it is fun..I had a buddy come over last night to watch the fights and he "sampled" a few of my different beers...He only had 4-5 but had to stay until 4 Am to be sober enough for me to let him drive.
XXMag
Sine you've asked. I've read up some more, but had a financial hick-up recently. Nothing serious, just getting a bill out of the way before I sink money into this.
Dave
QUOTE (Alie @ May 30 2010, 11:07 AM) *
We, or rather the husband, have started brewing our own beer over a year and a half ago.

We got inspired after watching All-Grain Brewing with Johnny Hanson, which I highly recommend by the way!
It will get you started with brewing without having to invest a lot of money.

We also bought The complete joy of Homebrewing by George Papazian.
Husband has already brewed a few nice triples and even a weedbeer, both great successes with friends icon_biggrin.gif

The Complete Joy of Homebrewing.... is that the one with the recipe for chicken beer? I think I had that book years ago but gave it away with all of my homebrewing equipment.
Alie
QUOTE (Dave @ May 31 2010, 08:39 AM) *
The Complete Joy of Homebrewing.... is that the one with the recipe for chicken beer? I think I had that book years ago but gave it away with all of my homebrewing equipment.


Sorry for the late reply, I got distracted by other... uhm.. stuff, heh.

Just checked and it does have a recipe for cock ale!

This book is really hilarious and helpful icon_mrgreen.gif
OHIOSTEVE
XX.. brewed yesterday and the day before. yesterday was a robust porter that I made once before and it is really good. Friday I brewed a very light ale of my own recipe that all my friends who drink stuff like bud light seem to favor. fri was hectic as hell for some reason, yesterday was a layed back easy brew day.
OHIOSTEVE
Brewed again today.. made an oatmeal stout that was a remake of one I made earlier. Added some more caramel malts to this one to sweeten or malt it up a bit over last time. FIVE HOURS from start to clean up being done. No wonder I get pissed when someone acts like HEY FREE BEER!!!
Alie
The husband just bottled another triple yesterday, looks like this will be his best one!
He hasn't had much time for brewing this past 6 months and is looking forward to brewing a bit more regularly again. icon_smile.gif
XXMag
Steve, how did the cheddar blonde turn out?
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (XXMag @ Jul 9 2010, 08:57 AM) *
Steve, how did the cheddar blonde turn out?

it is fine exept it has excess sediment in it. I don't think it has anything to do with the cheezit. I used gelatin to clear it and it is crystal clear but if you do not pour it very carefully you get "floaties" in your beer. Tastes great though.
OHIOSTEVE
Just drank one of my barleywines.. about a 12% beer . Exceptioonally smooth for a beer that big. I am definitely brewing this one again soon.. maybe even bigger...say 20%??
OHIOSTEVE
doing a vanilla bourbon porter soon...maybe tomorrow. a dark beer with vanilla beans in it.. then right before bottling about 10 oz of makers mark bourbon added.....mmmmmmmm
Dave
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 11 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Just drank one of my barleywines.. about a 12% beer . Exceptioonally smooth for a beer that big. I am definitely brewing this one again soon.. maybe even bigger...say 20%??

Seems relevant:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/16/w...o_n_463975.html
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (Dave @ Jul 21 2010, 06:02 AM) *
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 11 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Just drank one of my barleywines.. about a 12% beer . Exceptioonally smooth for a beer that big. I am definitely brewing this one again soon.. maybe even bigger...say 20%??

Seems relevant:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/16/w...o_n_463975.html

I think they are freezing those beers and straining out the ice to make them that high in alcohol.
Dave
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 21 2010, 08:56 AM) *
QUOTE (Dave @ Jul 21 2010, 06:02 AM) *
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 11 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Just drank one of my barleywines.. about a 12% beer . Exceptioonally smooth for a beer that big. I am definitely brewing this one again soon.. maybe even bigger...say 20%??

Seems relevant:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/16/w...o_n_463975.html

I think they are freezing those beers and straining out the ice to make them that high in alcohol.

Ice beer. icon_bottumup.gif icon_puke.gif

OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (Dave @ Jul 21 2010, 10:30 AM) *
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 21 2010, 08:56 AM) *
QUOTE (Dave @ Jul 21 2010, 06:02 AM) *
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 11 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Just drank one of my barleywines.. about a 12% beer . Exceptioonally smooth for a beer that big. I am definitely brewing this one again soon.. maybe even bigger...say 20%??

Seems relevant:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/16/w...o_n_463975.html

I think they are freezing those beers and straining out the ice to make them that high in alcohol.

Ice beer. icon_bottumup.gif icon_puke.gif

lol.. It is called freeze distillation I think.. ferment as dry as possible then freeze and strain out the ice... freeze again...strain out the ice .. repeat until nothing but alcohol left lol.
Grace
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 9 2010, 11:25 AM) *
QUOTE (XXMag @ Jul 9 2010, 08:57 AM) *
Steve, how did the cheddar blonde turn out?

it is fine exept it has excess sediment in it. I don't think it has anything to do with the cheezit. I used gelatin to clear it and it is crystal clear but if you do not pour it very carefully you get "floaties" in your beer. Tastes great though.



Just use a coffee filter to strain next time you pour it. Works great on capturing sediment.
Dave
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 21 2010, 01:38 PM) *
QUOTE (Dave @ Jul 21 2010, 10:30 AM) *
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 21 2010, 08:56 AM) *
QUOTE (Dave @ Jul 21 2010, 06:02 AM) *
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 11 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Just drank one of my barleywines.. about a 12% beer . Exceptioonally smooth for a beer that big. I am definitely brewing this one again soon.. maybe even bigger...say 20%??

Seems relevant:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/16/w...o_n_463975.html

I think they are freezing those beers and straining out the ice to make them that high in alcohol.

Ice beer. icon_bottumup.gif icon_puke.gif

lol.. It is called freeze distillation I think.. ferment as dry as possible then freeze and strain out the ice... freeze again...strain out the ice .. repeat until nothing but alcohol left lol.

I prefer high hop content over high alcohol content. I'll stick to the IPAs. The more lupulin the better.
OHIOSTEVE
I think you would like my beers. I have a dogfish head 60 minute clone that is REALLY good.
Dave
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 21 2010, 07:53 PM) *
I think you would like my beers. I have a dogfish head 60 minute clone that is REALLY good.

I have seen the Dogfish Head beers in the stores around here but not the 60 or 90 minute varieties. Stone Brewery Ruination IPA is a great beer if you like hops. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and Harpoon IPA are my "go to" beers.
OHIOSTEVE
I just brewed today.. was a complete disaster. Started off with the drill to run the grain mill being dead so we had to keep swapping out batteries until we got all of it ground......Then I found that I bought the wrong hops for my recipe......Then after the mash I was putting the beer into my brew kettle and it started running out on the ground. My sight glass ( gives you the volume level in your pot) had broken, got that fixed but now I have NO idea what the volume is......THEN I got everything going well, the beer started boiling , I dropped in my first hop addition and POOF... OUT OF GAS!!! My wife grabbed a big pot that I just picked up and we transferred the beer into that...wrapped the pot in aluminum foil ( to hold heat in better) and finished the beer on the stove.... So it turned out. I have 5+- gallons of porter in the fermentor.. gonna add vanilla beans in secondary, then makers mark bourbon at bottling time. got 20+ gallons of beer in fermentors right now.
OHIOSTEVE
QUOTE (Dave @ Jul 21 2010, 06:20 PM) *
QUOTE (OHIOSTEVE @ Jul 21 2010, 07:53 PM) *
I think you would like my beers. I have a dogfish head 60 minute clone that is REALLY good.

I have seen the Dogfish Head beers in the stores around here but not the 60 or 90 minute varieties. Stone Brewery Ruination IPA is a great beer if you like hops. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and Harpoon IPA are my "go to" beers.

I have never had the stone ruination but hear it is awesome.. I drank a DRAGONS MILK a while back and it was without a doubt the grossest beer I have ever tried to choke down. was so expensive that I forced it down.. made my lips and face go numb. I had HOP STOOPID and it was GREAT. I think I will look up a stone ruination clone and give it a try!
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