I especially liked that excerpt! I think it might be true.

"According to Gallup's latest "moral acceptability" poll, out this May, the percentage of Americans who find "Buying and wearing clothing made of animal fur" to be morally acceptable has rebounded after three years of decline."

There is no spiritual leader who ever existed on the planet or who curently exists on the planet who would agree that breeding an animal and then caging it for its entire life and then skinning it for its fur - for the fashion industry - is morally acceptable. According to the poll of "moral acceptability", we have many people who have simply lost their way. The poll is only an indication of that.

But we don't need to look for guidance from spiritual leaders to figure this out for ourselves. It's simple. The seeing of it is simple. We don't need so called morality to set our ships in the right direction because society's idea of morality is quite immoral. At one time, killing an animal for its fur and for its food energy was necesary and therefore morally acceptable. It was morally acceptable becuase it had to be. Nowadays though, it sems to be about gluttony which is a sin! In other words, so callled "morality" is a cloak of respectability and nothing more. It disguises corrupt practices, cruelty, violence, .. and worst of all, tradition!

We all have to make a living but we need to be very, very careful about how that living is made. Not anything goes! If we were to make our living from killing elephants and taking their tusks - in order to make ashtrays!?! Obviously these kinds of jobs would not wash. Taking the lives of elephants for their tusks would be an incredibly harmful and destructive industry.

Rather, we need to have the power of discernement and we also have free will. We can send our kids to church on Sunday and then send them to war on Monday and call it God's choice or we can use our power of will an discernement to figure out for ourselves what is right and wrong. For instance, we do not teach peace and send our kids to war! That is too hypocritical and far too illogical. There is no such thing as God and War and whoever uses them in the same sentence is deluded. God has nothing to do with war. The two are completely unrelated. War is human made!

So we need to be careful of our sons and keep them safe - away from war-like pursuits. Away from fighting of any sort. Make sure they make their living from honest pursuits. So they can use their wit, their intelligence, their strenghts, their attributes, their gifts .... and that none of these are wasted in war or religion.

The most important thing though is that our sons and daughters do not commit acts of violence against other human beings or against other animals such as in factory farming situations, or in hunting situations - or end up being fashionable and wearing fur unconsciously. I wouldn't want a child like that or at least I would question my parenting if one of mine ended up that way ....

There is no spiritual leader who ever existed on the planet or who currently exists on the planet who would agree that breeding an animal and then caging it for its entire life and then skinning it for its fur - for the fashion industry

But we don't need to look for guidance from spiritual leaders to figure this out for ourselves. It's simple. The seeing of it is simple.

We all have to make a living but we need to be very, very careful about how that living is made. Not anything goes.

Rather, we need to have the power of discernment and we also have free will.

If we were to make our living from killing elephants and taking their tusks - in order to make ashtrays!?! Obviously these kinds of jobs would not wash. Taking the lives of elephants for their tusks would be an incredibly harmful and destructive industry.

Rather, we need to have the power of discernment and we also have free will. We can send our kids to church on Sunday and then send them to war on Monday and call it God's choice or we can use our power of will an discernment to figure out for ourselves what is right and wrong. For instance, we do not teach peace and send our kids to war! That is too hypocritical and far too illogical. There is no such thing as God and War and whoever uses them in the same sentence is deluded. God has nothing to do with war. The two are completely unrelated. War is human made!

So we need to be careful of our sons and keep them safe - away from war-like pursuits. Away from fighting of any sort. Make sure they make their living from honest pursuits. So they can use their wit, their intelligence, their strengths, their attributes, their gifts .... and that none of these are wasted in war or religion.

Well releasing lab animals and domestic mink and such into the wild doesn't seem terribly compassionate when it comes to those animals...

nope don't think so... the Pope does and has worn fur for a very long time... not to mention the wives of many spiritual "leaders" wear fur coats

Oh yes, I had completely forgotten about the Pope, probably because I don't consider the Pope to be a spiritual leader.

I could have predicted that your list of "spiritual leaders" would be narrowed to "spiritual leaders that agree with you".

Note regarding the 19 year old soldiers.....

The U.S currently has a vulunteer military. That 19 year has the finale say on where and what he wants to do, Starhawk.

Note regarding the 19 year old soldiers.....

The U.S currently has a vulunteer military. That 19 year has the finale say on where and what he wants to do, Starhawk.

I know Iowonic. But do they really have a choice? Most of the kids in there have been lured by the promise of an education, an income etc. So they are really being exploited by their country. Most of them don't have much money or opportunities. It's been this way throughout history - always the marginalized who end up as fodder.

Eventually they do get their education and they grow up too! By then, they may decide to stay in the military as a career choice which is fine, but their lives have been streamlined in that direction for so many years, it's not likely they'd choose something else. Anyway, joining the military at 19 seems like a desperate measure for a desperate situation.

Do you feel that the beneficiaries of welfare programs, college grants etc are victims of exploitation too?

I don't buy it because it doesn't make sense and when something doesn't make sense its usually because it's not true.

No I don't. They are not required to put their lives on the line in order to get an education.

"Then your argument referencing spiritual leaders is nothing but an elaborate fallacy, even to those who might give a shit what spiritual leaders in general think."


First, how is it a fallacy? Second, if it is a fallacy, how is it elaborate?

It is a fallacy in general because it is appeal to authority that nobody is beholden to accept. You demonstrate this yourself in the case of the Pope. He apparently has nothing against fur....you disagree and don't accept his authority in the matter.

I said elaborate because as I suspected it became obvious that you understood the fallacy and had only tossed it out there as some sort of rhetorical flourish aimed at someone who might on the off chance find it appealing. (Hi Grace!) Yet because from the outset you would only accept spiritual leaders who agreed with your premise in the first place, it became a variation or perhaps combination of either No True Scotsman or Begging the Question.

"According to Gallup's latest "moral acceptability" poll, out this May, the percentage of Americans who find "Buying and wearing clothing made of animal fur" to be morally acceptable has rebounded after three years of decline."

There is no spiritual leader who ever existed on the planet or who curently exists on the planet who would agree that breeding an animal and then caging it for its entire life and then skinning it for its fur - for the fashion industry - is morally acceptable. According to the poll of "moral acceptability", we have many people who have simply lost their way. The poll is only an indication of that.

But we don't need to look for guidance from spiritual leaders to figure this out for ourselves. It's simple. The seeing of it is simple. We don't need so called morality to set our ships in the right direction because society's idea of morality is quite immoral. At one time, killing an animal for its fur and for its food energy was necesary and therefore morally acceptable. It was morally acceptable becuase it had to be. Nowadays though, it sems to be about gluttony which is a sin! In other words, so callled "morality" is a cloak of respectability and nothing more. It disguises corrupt practices, cruelty, violence, .. and worst of all, tradition!

We all have to make a living but we need to be very, very careful about how that living is made. Not anything goes! If we were to make our living from killing elephants and taking their tusks - in order to make ashtrays!?! Obviously these kinds of jobs would not wash. Taking the lives of elephants for their tusks would be an incredibly harmful and destructive industry.

Rather, we need to have the power of discernement and we also have free will. We can send our kids to church on Sunday and then send them to war on Monday and call it God's choice or we can use our power of will an discernement to figure out for ourselves what is right and wrong. For instance, we do not teach peace and send our kids to war! That is too hypocritical and far too illogical. There is no such thing as God and War and whoever uses them in the same sentence is deluded. God has nothing to do with war. The two are completely unrelated. War is human made!

So we need to be careful of our sons and keep them safe - away from war-like pursuits. Away from fighting of any sort. Make sure they make their living from honest pursuits. So they can use their wit, their intelligence, their strenghts, their attributes, their gifts .... and that none of these are wasted in war or religion.

The most important thing though is that our sons and daughters do not commit acts of violence against other human beings or against other animals such as in factory farming situations, or in hunting situations - or end up being fashionable and wearing fur unconsciously. I wouldn't want a child like that or at least I would question my parenting if one of mine ended up that way ....

There is no spiritual leader who ever existed on the planet or who currently exists on the planet who would agree that breeding an animal and then caging it for its entire life and then skinning it for its fur - for the fashion industry

But we don't need to look for guidance from spiritual leaders to figure this out for ourselves. It's simple. The seeing of it is simple.

We all have to make a living but we need to be very, very careful about how that living is made. Not anything goes.

Rather, we need to have the power of discernment and we also have free will.

If we were to make our living from killing elephants and taking their tusks - in order to make ashtrays!?! Obviously these kinds of jobs would not wash. Taking the lives of elephants for their tusks would be an incredibly harmful and destructive industry.

Rather, we need to have the power of discernment and we also have free will. We can send our kids to church on Sunday and then send them to war on Monday and call it God's choice or we can use our power of will an discernment to figure out for ourselves what is right and wrong. For instance, we do not teach peace and send our kids to war! That is too hypocritical and far too illogical. There is no such thing as God and War and whoever uses them in the same sentence is deluded. God has nothing to do with war. The two are completely unrelated. War is human made!

So we need to be careful of our sons and keep them safe - away from war-like pursuits. Away from fighting of any sort. Make sure they make their living from honest pursuits. So they can use their wit, their intelligence, their strengths, their attributes, their gifts .... and that none of these are wasted in war or religion.

Does your self centered outlook allow for the idea that something might not make sense to you because it is outside your experience?

Oh...so if they don't have to provide anything tangible in exchange for something of value to them, it isn't exploitation. (At least not of them.)

But if they willingly exchange value for value, that is exploitation. And in the pejorative sense of the term, I presume.

If I lure someone into operating a bulldozer for me by promising him an income, is that exploitation in the pejorative sense too?

It is a fallacy in general because it is appeal to authority that nobody is beholden to accept. You demonstrate this yourself in the case of the Pope. He apparently has nothing against fur....you disagree and don't accept his authority in the matter.

I said elaborate because as I suspected it became obvious that you understood the fallacy and had only tossed it out there as some sort of rhetorical flourish aimed at someone who might on the off chance find it appealing. (Hi Grace!) Yet because from the outset you would only accept spiritual leaders who agreed with your premise in the first place, it became a variation or perhaps combination of either No True Scotsman or Begging the Question.

so why even bring it up



that kinda contradicts itself doesn't it




well , not true . before regulated hunting , elephants as a whole was not doing very well . regulated hunting gave the tribes that controlled the land a money reason to protect the elephants . now they kill the poachers instead of the elephants. if regulated hunting industry improves the elephant herds how is that destructive . before hunting they were being wiped out .



i don't know god had no problem with smitting {sp} one's enemies .




i'd like to add this >>

Perspective

What to do if you happen upon a peace rally to teach them why force is
sometimes needed:

1) Approach naive man talking about "peace" and saying there should be, "no
retaliation."

2) Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate.

3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause
more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more
violence."

5) When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face.

6) When he gets back up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and
contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should
not cause more violence."

7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence.

8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time.

Repeat steps 6 through 8 until he understands that sometimes it is necessary to
punch back.

Food for thought.

I would give you $1000 if you could lay one on my chin Frankie, don't always have to hit back, that's just your mentality. Anyway I would just run around you until you run out of steam (shouldn't take long) then push you over and watch you try get up

read it

I did and responded.